rosemary on 08/12/2006
I would love to hear your advice on this situation - which essentially is a no-hoper, but I can't get it out of my head.
A guy contacted me through a dating site, we quickly got talking on the phone. For a few days we had 5 hour conversations, a mixture of banter, chat and quite deep stuff. We really seemed to connect on lots of levels.
We then met and had a drink. All seemed to go well, but no physical contact. He carried on calling me for 2 hours a night after that.
He is an unusual guy (we are both 33). He has never been into clubbing, or 'pulling' women - and finds that quite distasteful.
When you get to 33, clubbing probably does feel distasteful, almost like a cattle market where you go to buy some prime meat. I must admit I do think people should find some more interesting and different ways to find their ideal partner. Clubbing just seems like last century, yet young people still seem to think it is fashionable and fun: to go out, get drunk, spew up, shag someone you hardly know, wake up the next morning, feeling sick, with a massive headache and supposedly not remembering what happened (so basically pretending they can't remember the bad things that happened, yet reeling off the funny things that happened as if it was only a few minutes ago). All of which is a good time!
At the moment, he is quite hermit-like - he doesn't want to go out and socialise, is quite introspective and brooding (but also absolutely hilarious).
It sounds as though you have found a guy that is an introvert and homely type of bloke. Some people say that you can look at star signs and judge what type of bloke he is. For example Cancer tends to be a homely type of bloke, who only has a small close circle of friends. I usually find the following web site is a good indicator of Horoscope Compatibility: http://www.astrology.com.au/compatibility/index.asp He does sound like a bit of a moody, emotional Cancerian from what you have said so far.
He has suffered depression in the past and reads a lot of deep literature (Nietzsche etc - he's doing a masters degree), which affects him.
I don't know what Nietzsche is all about, in fact I'm not that into books at all, I don't really have time for them, so I don't know in which way the book is deep.
The only way to get out of this type of depression is to stop watching the news, stop reading newspapers, stop watching soaps and stop reading depressive books. Because all of these paint the picture that the world is full of bad people and bad times. In reality the world has always been full of bad people and bad times, murders and rapes where more common in past centuries because there were no police and no statistics. Yet we are led to believe that crime is getting worse, the reality is crime has evolved and yes some types of crime are becoming more common, but compare that to past centuries and we are much more civilised society.
He said that all his previous relationships have been affected by his low sex drive and often doesn't orgasm.
I don't think many men orgasm that well anyway. The only orgasm men tend to get is when they come. Which is probably why men try to work too fast on women, because they are keen to get to their orgasm. Quite a few women don't make much effort to improve a man's orgasm because they simply don't know how to. Women also have a tendency to lay back and think, it is him that has to do all the work on me, to make me orgasm, there is nothing much I can do, he has got to make all the moves. Anyway I won't go into all the methods of getting a man to orgasm before he comes.
It is possibly his depression that gives him a low sex drive, or his lack of success with women or his inability to understand how he can orgasm more, or his inability to get a woman to make him orgasm more. There are many more possibilities, like does he eat the right foods to give him some sex drive, has he experimented with drugs in the past, for example cannabis leaves you with depression and low sex drive as well as drinking too much alcohol.
He said the women started off as his 'equal' but quickly became clingy, which puts him off.
It's enough to put any man off, when a woman becomes too clingy and won't give a man any space or let him do what he wants to do. Girlfriends often think their boyfriends life should revolve around them, and them only.
He also said he isn't into the 'dating mechanism' and isn't great with it - and termed our first meeting a 'non date'.
I'm not sure whether that is his sense of humour coming out or whether he is being serious. It seems that he finds anything to do with women, completely and utterly scarey and it sounds as though he has resigned himself to being single and alone for the rest of his life (because it is less hassle and there is less chance he will end up hurt).
Before we met, we had a conversation about the 'spark' and intensity you feel with someone at the beginning - and how often it proves to be quite unhealthy, and burns out quite dramatically.
That's what happens when you start a relationship, there is a lot of chemical reactions in your body and brain which result in these actions. It often leads to you failing to see the other persons faults because your so in love with them. Then eventually it fizzles out and you see all the persons bad habits. It's a natural progression of a relationship, the key point is to try and stop it from burning out, that is when you go on to have a lasting relationship.
We debated whether it's better to get to know someone over time, as this leads to something deeper - and he said what I said about the topic really struck a chord with him. NB He is extremely good looking.
It is best to get to know someone before you decide to go into a full scale relationship. I think it is better to get to know someone before you have sex, unfortunately casual sex is in fashion and that's not the way people are going to act now.
Anyway - back to the story. So a week, after the first date, (and 2 hour phone calls each night) I suggested meeting again (as I knew he's not great with the dating 'thing').
That's very good, your compromising, and understanding his lack of enjoyment with the dating scene. But you have got to expect him to compromise too and do some things you enjoy. He can't remain self centered, otherwise he will lose you.
He suggested the next day, so I went to his to watch DVDs.
Sounds like the ideal date for someone like him (rather than a 'non date' lol). He is a homely person and sounds as though he would enjoy the company, to break the loneliness every now and then.
Again seemed to go well, but no physical contact.
I would have thought he might enjoy snuggling up on the sofa with you, just a bit of hugging. But maybe he doesn't want to break your friendship by getting too close too soon. Or maybe he felt a bit nervous and didn't get the opportunity or even that he is trying to fight off getting too close to you.
After that, he still contacted me every day, but for less time. I felt he wasn't initiating meeting etc, so in the end I said he seems to be a hermit and did he want me to leave him to it.
I think it is a case of he has got used to living like this and it will take a lot for him to get used to having someone there. He needs more space than the average person because that is what he has been used to. There will be times when he will think I don't want anyones company, I just want to relax and read a book on my own. Then there will be times when he will think I want some company now or I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life.
He replied that there was room in his life for him, and no, definitely not to leave him alone.
That is possibly his greatest fear and probably why he is not getting too close to you, too soon. His greatest fear will be that he will get close to you, then all of a sudden you will decide I don't want to know him anymore. He has then spent months of his life getting used to having your company, only to be dropped with the bombshell of being completely on his own again. If that happens it would have a devastating effect on him and he knows that. So he doesn't want to get too close to you in case that happens and he wants to prepare his mind in case it does happens, so that is why he is gradually working you into his life and being over cautious.
He has also stated in the past he doesn't like over clingy women, and so he probably hopes that you are not going to become one of them. The fact is, you can become one of them, but you will have to wait a few years and gradually become more and more clingy without him noticing.
He then asked what I was doing on Friday - we agreed to meet, but I said I wasn't going to be the one doing the asking any more. That week, he increased the contact again.
Your pushing on his greatest fear, that he is going to lose you. So he is stepping it up, realising that he is going to have to make an effort with you. You are communicating to him your feelings which is good, because he needs some guidance, he is not used to this situation. He will probably feel slightly relieved that you are telling him what to do. Because most women expect men to be psychic.
The Friday night at his was quite dull, DVDs, no contact not much conversation. I left quite early completely bemused by what was going on.
Again, he doesn't know what women enjoy, so he needs some guidance. So you need to give him a compromise situation where you do something you enjoy but something that he doesn't absolutely hate (not nightclubs).
So, I asked him outright, last weekend, said I felt he saw us as just friends. He said he isn't sure how he feels, had just been seeing how things went and what developed (and had thought a lot about our initial 'spark' conversation). I said - 'I guess you just don't fancy me then'. He said it's not that he doesn't fancy me, but he doesn't know if he feels 'enough' - and maybe he does need the 'fireworks', the ONE person that you ruin towards without hesitation, the 'instinct' the 'sense of the metaphysical'.
I think I get what he means, though I've never heard that word before 'metaphysical'. Basically he is saying what all men should be saying. He should be looking for a woman that really lights his fire, rather than having brief flits with one night stands and short term relationships. So I think he is being sensible more than anything else. He hasn't led you on too much and he hasn't tried to use you for sex. It means that if it does happen, you know he really does feel genuine about you, which is the way it should be with all men. When you go out with a woman and have sex with a woman, you should feel genuine about liking them.
He said he was feeling mixed up, and we should probably just stay friends. (Isn't that just a nice way of saying 'I find you as sexually attractive as a poo??!!)
Yes, it does indeed seem as though he doesn't find you sexually attractive. This guy is so complex and so much of a challenge, it may just be because he doesn't want a heavy relationship at the moment because of past experiences and doesn't want to lose you as a friend either. Either way it takes a very genuine guy, not to abuse the situation of you fancying him and use you for sex. Friend or no friend most blokes will use and abuse the situation to get some sex out of it, but not this guy. He seems to value you greatly as a friend.
Thing is I really like him. We do get on well, there does seem to be a connection.
There does seem to be a connection and it seems he values you massively as a friend. Whether it could progress more than that, I really can't tell you because this is a very complex kind of guy.
Part of me thinks I should move on - which is proving REALLY hard after him contacting me every night for a month - it would have been easier if he hadn't done this, I feel a litle 'misled' (esp as I'm in the UK which doesn't really have a 'dating' culture).
I personally don't think he has misled you, he has never told you he fancied you, he has never touched you, he has never had sex with you. All his indications have been towards being a friend.
And part of me thinks if I stay friends, maybe he will end up feeling something.
I think that is how you should progress it with him. You should stop trying to think of him as a potential boyfriend and start thinking of him as a friend. Bring your mind around to that thought. If he then ends up starting to warm to you from a relationship point of view then it is a bonus, if he doesn't you have brought your mind around to thinking he is maybe not the right person anyway. In the meantime you should start pursuing other guys as potential for a relationship.
Part of me thinks the introspective, intellectual, brooding thing might prove difficult anyway, and that he is too idealistic romantically and may never find the perfection he wants. Part of me feels plain ugly, and stupid for thinking he liked me for the past month.
You really shouldn't feel ugly, this is just one man. Different men, find different women attractive.
I let my thoughts run away with me.
On top of this, I wonder if 'the spark' is partly created by the other person being a challenge.
This guy is definitely a challenge, I identified you were going to talk to me about a challenging bloke, in pretty much your second paragraph.
He said he doesn't play games, so I have been quite available and open - I wonder if I should have held back some more to create more interest.
I think you made him jump into action when you said, should you leave him alone to live like a hermit. He quickly decided he didn't want to lose you and quickly made an effort, even though you thought it was a limp one. This guy is so inexperienced with women, that he needs to know what a woman wants. Most men are not psychic and this guy is definitely not psychic. He needs to know your opinions and what you like and don't like.
All in all I feel miserable, and can't get it out of me head.
I'm sorry if this is too long, you did say you wanted as much background as possible - although perhaps not an essay!
Believe me, I've read far longer messages than this. Almost like a books worth. And I prefer this much detail because it allows me to come to a better conclusion and make better judgements.
In conclusion what you have got here is a homely guy, that is not experienced with women, he is very complex and is going to be a great challenge to get him to even think about a long term relationship with you or indeed anyone. He obviously wants a woman to show him how dedicated she is to him and how dedicated she is to staying with him. If you do commit to the challenge you could nuture this guy into a very loyal and lifelong relationship. He has the potential there to be a very good partner, because he has respectable values (unlike most men and indeed women). The down side is it is going to be very difficult getting there, if indeed you don't give up on the challenge. You have also got to be concerned with his history of depression, because depression never seems to go away fully, it tends to recur. This guy does sound like a moody cancerian though, I wonder if he is mistaking his moodiness for depression.
As I suggested a few paragraphs above, I recommend you start to picture this guy as a friend rather than a boyfriend. That is the only way forward at the moment, if it then progresses anymore than that it is a bonus. If it doesn't then you are looking for another man anyway, so you can keep him as a friend and go out with another man, I'm sure he will probably take some notice if another man comes onto the scene, in fact he will probably be devastated, because it will mean less contact with you.
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